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[sathor]

This emptiness finds its expression in the whole form of existence, in the infiniteness of Time and Space as opposed to the finiteness of the individual in both; in the flitting present as the only manner of real existence; in the dependence and relativity of all things; in constantly Becoming without Being; in continually wishing without being satisfied; in an incessant thwarting of one’s efforts, which go to make up life, until victory is won. Time, and the transitoriness of all things, are merely the form under which the will to live, which as the thing-in-itself is imperishable, has revealed to Time the futility of its efforts. Time is that by which at every moment all things become as nothing in our hands, and thereby lose all their true value.

Arthur Schopenhauer

Here's another good one, from the same text:

"It may be said of man in general that, befooled by hope, he dances into the arms of death."

Comments

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - there's good reason why Schopenhauer is "often cited as the greatest pessimist in the Western philosophical tradition":

"1) asserts that existence is a mistake

(2) that there is no meaning or purpose to human existence

(3) that the best thing for humans is not to exist

(4) the next best is to obtain a state of being in which the world becomes nothing

(5) life is essentially suffering and suffering is evil

(6) and this is the worst of all possible worlds"

As a way to put oneself in a depressed mood, I would rank reading Schopenhauer right up there with listening to 'The Cure' in a dark room while drinking Jack Daniels - especially if one's mood is already tending that direction. So the question that springs to my mind is: WTF? Is this not contrary to your goal of not being depressed?

[sathor.livejournal.com]

There is some irony in Schopenhauer, in particular the piece I was quoting - in which he speaks of nonexistence, the opposite of existence, "for many thousands of years." The irony is that if in fact we can come into existence again, nonexistence would be but an instant, unknowable and unable to be experienced - and even if we do not come back into existence, eternity would be instantaneous and unknowable. What a hell the former would be for Schopenhauer? Eternally damned to awake again and again "much to his astonishment." But we don't remember anyway, (in Plato's mythology, we enter the river of forgetfulness) so he'd just be doomed to come to the same existential conclusions once more (or merely remembering them, as Socrates thought of learning?)

In "The Emptiness of Existence" he doesn't state that the best scenario for humans is not to exist - at least, I don't recall him doing so. He simply states that the only real existence is the present (in jetztzeit "present time"), the past nothing but a delusion, the future the same. I think it's undoubtable given that his opening paragraph talks about Being, Time, the transitoriness of all things, and Becoming, that Heidegger was heavily influenced by Schopenhauer...and that's yet another reason I'm glad I found him (as I find Heidegger to be possibly one of the most brilliant and enlightening writers of the 20th century.)

Reading Schopenhauer is more comforting to me - many of his thoughts seem to be my own, although I don't feel as though it is depressing - more or less, it seems to lift burdens from my shoulders, to know that there are others who experience these thoughts and feelings, and can reason on them.

Hopefully it didn't trigger you, though - that would be a really unfortunate consequence. We're all dancing into the arms of death, I'd say - no two ways about it. Best to enjoy the moments we do have, then?

Ah, and, I will read that link, but I'm erring on the side of caution because I think that Schopenhauer very likely influenced both Nietzsche and Heidegger...even if he is a terrible pessimist and they're concluding he's not worth anyone's time, he's certainly worth the time of someone who wants to better understand his philosophical descendants.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

LOL, no, I'm not triggered by philosophy - anyway, it's 40 years since I read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche (who was indeed influenced by Schopenhauer,) and I don't recall ever reading Heidegger at all, so if I was going to be triggered, I'd have to study for it.

"The irony is that if in fact we can come into existence again, nonexistence would be but an instant, unknowable and unable to be experienced - and even if we do not come back into existence, eternity would be instantaneous and unknowable."

True, and there have been a number of good SF stories based around that premise. But what of it? Since there's no rational reason to think that in fact we can come into existence again, it's all moot; a thought-experiment with no basis in experiential reality.

I don't say that Schopenhauer is not worth anyone's time. I do say he's not the healthiest writer to read when one is trying to avoid depression. For sure, pessimism sounds most comforting and affirming when one is in a pessimistic frame of mind, because it matches and reinforces it: you know enough about cognitive bias to know how that works. So, is reinforcing your own pessimism with Schopenhauer's going to make you feel better, or function better, or otherwise help you move toward what you want in life?

For sure, our consciousness only exists in the present moment, but - again - what of it? The past, the present and the future are all inextricably linked by cause-and-effect. Moreover, regardless of whether Time and Space are both 'delusional', one can't live a human life without embracing that 'delusion'. (I would not call the life of an immured anchorite a 'human life', but rather a weird form of slow suicide.)

I'm not dancing into the arms of death. I'm dancing in the arms of life, and I mean to enjoy it as much as I can before the clock strikes midnight and I turn to ash. I don't particularly fear the Reaper, who has asked me to dance more than once, but I don't want to be his girlfriend either, and I probably will not go gentle into that good night.

"Hey nonny no!
Men are fools that wish to die!
Is 't not fine to dance and sing
When the bells of death do ring?
Is 't not fine to swim in wine,
And turn upon the toe,
And sing hey nonny no!
When the winds blow and the seas flow?
Hey nonny no!"

Or, as Monty Python put it:

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree at all - and glad I didn't put you into a down mood because of those quotes. Reading Schopenhauer doesn't make me depressed...I actually find it fairly relaxing because his writing isn't as dense as the Greek translations (I feel like if I knew Greek, I'd probably be able to translate something that doesn't read like a graduate-level engineer text.) Reading it doesn't put me in a depressed mood - whether that's just a sign of my improvement or what, who's to say...

What I can say about my depression is that I haven't really experienced it in quite the same way for quite some time. Since leaving United things have been quite a bit different...I can say right now I'm somewhat depressed about certain things (like music, for instance - I feel like I can't make any progress with it, and I feel like it's silly to keep putting time and effort in...and there's some specific things that happened recently that highlight that) and, for instance, the college finance situation, and also, the job situation here, but those are things I can't change - I either adjust/accept them, or move somewhere else. I can't really be depressed about it...maybe just a little peeved.

I'm assuming you're referencing Buddhist monks with the immured anchorite comment (had to look up both words) - I think that piece I was quoting is actually fairly Buddhist. It's odd to see it written that way by Schopenhauer, as it sort of makes me reflect on Buddhism (which I was very into for a long time) in a different light.

The Monty Python bit is a nice link - thank you :)

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! That song comes courtesy of my housemate James, who's a great fan of philosophy.

Both Buddhism and Christianity have had immured anchorites; some of the Buddhist ones actually tried to turn themselves into living mummies. There are at least as many different sects of Buddhism as there are of Christianity - like Christianity, most are fairly benign, some are dark and creepy, a few are horrifically twisted.

I consider depression to be a much more serious matter than bad moods or discouragement with one's situation. A person can be sad, blue, annoyed, discouraged, or even pessimistic, without sinking into the despairing, self-loathing lethargy of depression. It sounds to me like you haven't actually been depressed since you left United, which is a very good thing.

A friend of a friend once wrote a refutation of Schopenhauer that compared him to Eeyore. That's an image to keep in mind, in taking Pessimism with a grain of salt: it's entirely possible that Schopenhauer himself was clinically depressed when he wrote his big thesis. As I said, it's been a long time since I read it, and doubtless my perspective would be different now, but what I recall most distinctly was Schopenhauer's revulsion at the world-as-it-is, and his conviction that mortification of the Will to Live was the only possible escape from it.

I don't hold with asceticism, and definitely don't hold with mortification - I think it's tragic and perverse, no different from drug addiction, even though the actual 'drugs' are produced by one's own body under prolonged stress. Attempts to 'kill the Will' don't make people happier or more functional; quite the contrary. I suppose if one is convinced that life is meaningless and all action or desire leads only to suffering, there's no reason not to either do Krokodil or have oneself walled up, depending on one's preference in ghastly and useless means of slow, painful suicide. "But I do not approve."

[sathor.livejournal.com]

It's actually kinda funny your friend compared Schopenhauer to Eeyore - I can't remember what girl from my past did the same to me, but she did. I always found it pretty annoying, if not infuriating. Heh.

Depression is a more serious thing than that. I can't easily explain the differences in my mental state from before and now, but there definitely are some. Of course there's also the concern that I'll find myself feeling similarly in the next job I take...which would be a recurring theme. I worry about that mostly because I've never had a job that kept me engaged for much longer than a year at a time. After I lose engagement, I lose most of my will to keep punching in.

I can't say for sure whether I fully trust in Buddhism or any other religion at this point...but my experiences with meditation, from Buddhist teachings, lead me to believe there's something to it. What that is, who knows. I used to have the most intense experiences while meditating - my entire body, every atom, would feel like it was vibrating, on the verge of something like what some claim astral projection is supposed to be, although I never really felt I was going to go anywhere or see anything - it's actually more or less beyond words. Not a divine experience like what people might feel in prayer, but something else. There was no sensation of the divine...just a deep, full vibration. Not sure you have any experience with that or could shine any light on it - I've never been able to. I always felt that if I could push the vibrations a bit deeper and a bit further, I'd breach some important wall, or point...never quite did, though. I can recall a similar "almost breaching" sensation on psychedelics.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, I don't remember enough about Schopenhauer to say to what extent I think he's like Eeeyore. That wasn't a comparison that sprang to my mind back when I actually read him, because I didn't read A.A. Milne's books until long after that.

" Of course there's also the concern that I'll find myself feeling similarly in the next job I take...which would be a recurring theme."

Hopefully by now you have enough insight into the causes of your emotional states to prevent that from happening. If you 'find yourself' feeling similarly, it'll be because you didn't pay attention to the process of little-by-little talking yourself into feeling that way.

It seems as though none of the jobs you held in the past were worth your engagement. You weren't learning anything useful or interesting, nor did you have any opportunity for advancement; most of the things you did, a robot could have done as well. Not to swell your head, young Jedi, but you are capable of so much more. Obviously you're never going to be content in a dead-end no-brainer job, regardless of how comfortably it pays the bills.

Yes, I've experienced ecstatic states during meditation - both that 'about to break through' sensation, and the sensation of having broken through; trying hard to hold on to it and bring something back to 'ordinary reality'. There are a lot of ways to induce a lot of different varieties of trance-states, and they all boil down to 'interesting things one can do with one's brain'.

There is in truth no 'veil' one can breach. The veil is an illusion - one can see it/not see it/see it/not see it indefinitely, like that optical illusion of a duck one way, a rabbit the other.

Astral travel: I got quite good at it in my high school and college days, and genuinely believed I was leaving my body. However, in the course of my Initiatory training, I put it to the test, to try and determine if the information I brought back from 'traveling' was accurate. It wasn't. After a lot of experimentation, I hypothesized that so-called 'astral travel' is actually a trance-induction to activate the brain's lucid-dreaming program while one is not technically asleep. I'd love to see a brain-scan study test this hypothesis properly.