Pro-Life?

[sathor]

Maybe I'm Pro-Life - but only because it grants individuals a penalty for making mistakes.

You know, the sluts of the world have to pay a price. Male and female both (because if they don't stay together, the man gets to pay child support.)

Is this so terrible? Heh...

It might make people more careful about who they have sex with, and when...don't you think?

Comments

[noximist.livejournal.com]

You're... kidding... right? Honestly, that is the worst pro-life argument imaginable, except maybe some yet-to-be-proposed 'We shouldn't abort anyone because this way we'll overpopulate and starve more quickly' genocide concept. I can understand people who defend a foetus's right to live - although I don't agree with it; I think that women deserve to have control over their bodies - because they're trying to protect human life. You're proposing that life used in a way you don't agree with not only doesn't deserve protection, it invites cruelty.

Guess who gets pregnant accidentally? Not just 'sluts,' whatever those are. (People who have sex in ways you don't personally agree with? Some people would call you a slut because you had sex before marriage - if you'd gotten someone pregnant, what then?) Condoms break, the pill fails, and babies are made. And guess who suffers most if you insist on childbirth as a penalty? The child.

Using human life as a weapon, no matter how you do it - war, slavery, enforced parenthood as punishment - is misguided. It's also incredibly easy to be pro-life when you are not the person who has to carry and give birth to that baby. The statistics on parenthood pretty clearly show that men do not suffer the way single mothers do, regardless of child support laws. Single mothers make up one of the most tragic underclasses of North American society, and condemning a woman to near-inescapable poverty because you think she's a slut is just wrong. It's also the kind of argument a religious fundamentalist would come up with, born of misogyny and hatred of one's fellow man.

I've never had to have an abortion, and I hope to hell I never end up in a position where I have to make that choice. But I'm always going to be thankful that whatever its problems, my society doesn't want me and my potential child to pay with our futures just because I like to have sex.

So yes, that is so terrible, actually. It's one of the most strikingly ignorant and cruel things I've read from someone I know in a long time. :/

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I would point out that, I couldn't really conceive of a pro-life argument other than the one above. Sorry you took it so seriously :(

I think we're already well on our way to overpopulation, which is unfortunate...

[noximist.livejournal.com]

Heh, conceive of...

I think there are legitimate pro-life arguments; if you truly believe that every human life merits a chance once it has been created, then I can see how abortion would seem anathema. It doesn't mean you should have the right to stop other people whose beliefs differ from yours, but the feeling is valid.

Sorry for jumping all over you when you weren't being serious, but that wasn't at all obvious from your post. Abortion is a big issue, and I probably react to anti-choice arguments more strongly than some people would; I've seen so much outright hatred of women from others (mostly men, but not always) that I'm particularly sensitive to it.

Overpopulation is relative, I think. A lot of the Earth is still empty of humans, which means we could spread out further if only we were better about shipping food to each other. I don't think it's necessary, mind you. Most people are boring. :p

[sathor.livejournal.com]

It would be interesting to see how far pro-lifers are willing to take the argument, you know? Sure, give them the chance to live - but what about equal opportunity to achieve maximum genetic potential? Or, as we well know, stop giving a shit after the child reaches a certain age - it becomes the parents responsibility and the individual's responsibility thereafter, regardless of how suffocating their circumstances may be. As far as I know, pro-life is generally reserved for right wingers and Christians (synonymous for the most part, aren't they?) and as far as I know, these individuals are most definitely vehemently opposed to any movement towards state socialism.

Until you're willing to grant a fetus equal opportunity to succeed, I don't see a reason to support any pro-life argument. Why let them be born when you're likely damning them to a life of poverty, especially if single mother's are a large portion of the povertous class, and we know from statistics that upward social mobility is an...uphill struggle?

[noximist.livejournal.com]

The thing is that most pro-life arguments say absolutely nothing about the actual life of the child - they just want to guarantee that the child makes it into the world. After that, it can sink or swim just like everyone else. I've never heard any socialist arguments come from anti-abortion advocates, though I've certainly not heard 'em all; blood starts pouring out of my ears after a while.

Why let them be born, indeed? Well, either it's because you believe that life is sacred (and new life is more sacred than older life), or because you want to control and punish women. In most cases and in most places, there's at least some of the latter argument in there. That's why your post set me off so badly: those ideas are shared by a lot of people, even if they're primarily a subtext rather than something stated outright. The people who read your LJ seem to know better, but there are plenty of folks who'd read those words, think "Damn right!" and be on their merry way. That's really distressing to me.

It's fine to play devil's advocate in your LJ, but you really have to expect some vitriol in response. After all, if you're just trying to provoke people with hateful words, isn't that what you want?

[sathor.livejournal.com]

In answer to the final question: Yes.

Devil's Advocate is very useful though, because it allows you to see holes both in the argument you are trying to further (by watching others tear it down) as well as counter-arguments, and it has the secondary effect of getting individuals to, once again, think about an issue that, maybe, they haven't thought about for awhile.

I'm not sure I really expected any response, but that's mainly because I'm confused whenever people comment here, as my assumption is nobody reads it except occasionally catching a post here and there ;)

As for the first statement you make, I think that's a significant problem because I myself would not bring life into the world unless I could provide for it, and this was a major disagreement between myself and my ex. Neither of us had the capacity to provide for it, or for it well at least, and at one point I even suggested that we stop having sex so she would never have to make a decision to abort or not (until we were ready to have children.) That led to her, admittedly, believing I was no longer attracted to her, which eventually led to her sleeping around (or maybe she already was) and leaving me. Sad, really, considering I was trying to do the best thing for her perspective (which was that of pro-life.)

I do find it disconcerting that you say, "sink or swim like everybody else" so non-chalantly, though (Or, rather, that -they- would insinuate that.) That's never the case, historically and in modern times. Economic class plays a significant role, as does the knowledge base of the parents. My college apps all want to know the education level of my mother and father, for instance, even my siblings, not to mention their financial status, and I am quite certain this plays a role in some kind of delphi-oracle like prediction as to the degree of success I am genetically capable of (or maybe it's less satanic, in that they want to know if I'll need additional aid and support because I don't have a familial background to educate me.) There is no other reason why they would need to know - income is something that they need to know merely for financial aid reasons, but otherwise, no - no reason other than the above.

As a whole, my point was exactly that pro-lifers would probably be unlikely to support socialism, even though bringing a life into the world to suffer and asphyxiate from sinking is probably, from a utilitarian perspective, worse than ending it before it has any kind of cognition, or brain stem...etc. Now on the other hand, if the mother is strong and desires to have that child and wants to provide for it, with or without the father, then -that is to be applauded-. I have heard enough stories about single women working hard and saving money to provide their fatherless child with, even -gasp- a college education! I have both of my parents, barely above the middle class line, and they can't provide that for me. I'm carrying that burden alone, and I fully plan on getting to a point where I can lecture all day long, somehow, as it is all I'm good for. That, and I don't want to push buttons in a factory all day.

I believe all life is equally sacred, that means insects and blades of grass as well. This is also how I justify eating meat. Plants grow away from harmful stimuli, this is no coincidence. They know it hurts. Maybe they don't think about it all day long, but there's evidence they are aware of their environments - they grow towards sunlight, don't they? The only argument for vegetarianism I support is that it takes more resources to raise cows than a field of wheat.

Blah blah blah...

Off topic reply. Enjoy.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Luckily in two years I can no longer be considered a dependent. I won't be letting anyone co-sign the vast numbers of loans I will require to pursue further formal education.

Not that I'm not educating myself in other ways in the meantime.

I hope what you say is true.

[mystic-waves.livejournal.com]

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

anecdotal evidence? I found this a while ago and freaked out over the absurdity. Completely relevant to this.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Reading through this brought up an interesting thought.

A lot of people are anti-abortion - and they would call abortion murder.

But how many of those same people are willing to say a soldier firing a gun in a war zone they were put in by choice - because they volunteered to join the military - are murderers? Because - that is exactly what they are.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Open the draft, I'll shoot those who come to my doorstep in response, and take the death penalty if so determined by a court of my peers.

That's the difference between volunteer and mandatory service. A volunteer can be a murderer, depending on circumstances they determine, as many Vietnam vets committed atrocities far beyond what people like to discuss. But there was a draft for that war, and a great many of those people did not want to be there.

I'm going to ask kindly that you stop throwing rhetoric around in my journal. The fact is, a volunteer soldier is putting themselves in a position to become a murderer, and when I was toying with the idea of joining the military -I was quite fucking well aware of that-.

There's a difference between defending your own, sovereign lands and bombing defenseless, less technologically advance innocents, and even combatants (who have no capacity to attack your lands directly) into submission. I can't argue with individuals who feel that is acceptable, nor will I.

[mystic-waves.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I'd agree with her. That is pretty fucked up dude. What about rape victims? What about condoms breaking? Sluts are pretty good about using condoms from my experience. It's the people in a relationship that sleep with only one person that feel like they can use other forms of birth control because the disease issue is not a factor. Oh no I had sex and don't want a kid. Yeah kind irresponsible but fuck that. Pun intended.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

It is irresponsible, that's why it's so ridiculous. It's like cognitive dissonance to the extreme. I want to have sex, but I don't want kids. Kids are a result of having sex. This is simple logic.

I wasn't really being serious - like I said in the other comment reply, this is one of the only pro-life arguments i can even -conceive- of.

[sendao.livejournal.com]

I can sympathize with your feelings about sluts (well, the ones who lead you on anyway), but as many mistakes as there are to make in this world, we may as well reduce the number of consequences as much as possible. The sluts of the world already pay dearly with their dignity and self-respect for the wonderful service they provide. Why make it worse? Even if they DO lead you on, ultimately it will just teach you a lesson in the importance of trust, I imagine.

Best wishes, Jake.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I am flabbergasted at the number of comments I receive when I play some sort of ludicrous devils advocate.

I write so much more intellectually stimulating and defensible things in this journal - is silence a sign of agreement?

[sendao.livejournal.com]

You know, I fought with myself for quite a while about posting that. There are some really obvious reasons that I shouldn't have, which I blatantly ignored, one of them being that there was already plenty of dissent, the other one being ... well let's not get into that. Ultimately the dissent is what convinced me to post, though.

I wanted to let you know that while I disagree with what you actually said, I totally sympathize with the feelings that lead you to say it. I think that element of empathic understanding is missing from most responses to controversial topics, and I feel it is important. It's not cruel of you to feel this way and write about it in your journal, not by my book anyway. This is your place to write about however you feel, and to feel free to write without criticism that doesn't take your own situation into account. You're more than capable of handling that criticism, but it shouldn't be all there is, anyway.

Also, as far as comments go, disagreeing is far more interesting than agreeing.

[mystic-waves.livejournal.com]

No it's that we agree with all the other shit you post but disagree with this so strongly...lol

[freefall127.livejournal.com]

wow, it would really suck to be somebody's punishment in life. i would hate to look at my mother and think i was the consequence of her sluttiness. my mother could have aborted me, i was an accident, she thought about it, i'm really glad she had the option so i know i wasn't some kind of moral ball and chain. and you think my dad paid child support? hah! yeah right. he loved me and all, but he's dirt poor.

yeah you got a lot of comments on this one.
a) it was short, b) it was inflammatory

so yeah i responded. i don't know what your childhood was like, but that struck a little close to home there.

[freefall127.livejournal.com]

after i turned 18 my dad let me live with him for free (paid my rent and bought groceries) while i went to college. it was the best he could do and it was really helpful. it's not like he doesn't care.