Skeptics and God?

[sathor]

Some random talk on the audio forums today got me thinking...

Why is it we never see any skeptics that have practiced meditation or yoga?

After I practiced meditation extensively, the way I looked at reality completely changed. I think it's silly that skeptics tend to discount things because there's no hard physical evidence but they are unwilling, like real scientists, to search out these inner feelings and perceptions that other people claim are a result of practice. Real scientists seek out verifiable results - is it so hard to believe that with spirituality, the results are -within- you and not outside of you?

And no, psychology won't make you enlightened.

Comments

[noximist.livejournal.com]

Who's this we? I can think of at least a dozen friends who are skeptics (and atheists, mostly) and who practice yoga and/or meditation on a consistent basis. It's pretty common in the math department here, oddly. I don't think that an interest in mind expansion is equivalent to belief in god(s) or magic, although obviously, plenty of people have both. You don't need spirituality to think that you can manifest interesting results inside yourself, after all; our brains are incredibly fascinating even when considered as purely physical constructions, and we don't really have any idea how they work.

I would suggest that purely internal results can also be verifiable. Science comes down to defining an experiment to test a hypothesis, and that can apply to anything we can detect via the most objective means we can manage. This NPR article mentions some studies that have been done, and I'm sure you could dig some up if you felt so inclined.

I've known plenty of open-minded scientists, and plenty of closed-minded spiritualists. It's all too individual to come down to nevers and anys, I think. Also, I wish everyone would try yoga, because it's fantastic for the mind and the body. I need to find a place that offers reasonably-priced lessons here. :/

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I think it's very unfortunate that the west has taught any of it without the mysticism that goes with. I would never frequent a Yoga teacher who didn't teach the spiritual aspects...i feel it's important to cultivate all sides of the teachings of any esoteric discipline.

I know there's a lot that -practice- it, so to speak, but it's always for the material benefits. I want to meet a convert, really, based merely on their experience with one of these mystical practices.

[noximist.livejournal.com]

What you said in your post is that no skeptics practice yoga or meditation; what you're saying here is that they don't practice it in the way you want them to. I don't think there's a lot of reason for me to continue arguing my point, since it was addressing the first idea and not the second. I can't comment on my friends' inner motivations, and my own don't really apply here.

I think it's odd to describe mind expansion, clarity of thought, and mind-body unity as material benefits, though. You don't have to have a religious epiphany to gain wisdom and knowledge from meditation, and almost no one in our culture is practicing any esoteric discipline in the way it was originally conceived...

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Seriously, that lj icon is totally fucking evil. I swear to god. Look at his eyes!

Yes, I didn't really clarify what I meant. Not necessarily the way -I- want them too, but the way it was intended, which is in a spiritual manner. But that's just an opinion.

I think they are a manifestation of the desire of material benefits, consequently invalidating the intention of them in the first place.

I remember what drew me to meditation. I wanted to be at peace, I wanted to cultivate something in me that wasn't tangible. I think you need that to ever really benefit from it in the absolute way. But maybe my intuition is wrong - I wouldn't really know with certainty.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

And I hope I'm not putting you off from commenting in my journal, either...I've been a bit more devilish as of late...and can't help but take opposing sides of an argument. Either that or I've simply reached a point where I must play counterpoint to everything :X

[sathor.livejournal.com]

My Yoga instructor from college was very, incredibly spiritual about it. Honestly I -loved- her, and would've totally hit on her had she not been married. I was the -only- male in the class. Oh baby.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

There are no goalposts, discussion is discussion, if it isn't making people think then it isn't worth it! That's why playing counterpoint is so significant. If a person is capable of just repeating rhetoric in discussion then it has done nothing to advance them.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is Bender from Futurama. That doesn't change the fact those beady fucking evil eyes are staring at me as I try to respond.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

The goalpost moving is a result of me being incapable of stating my absolute consideration regarding this particular instance...she is correct based on that, but with regards to what I specifically want to see...I simply don't see it. And neither do many others.

Sure, i agree, it was goalpost moving. But not intentionally.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

Uh, and? This is my journal, it's better for me to correct myself in a comment than it is to correct myself by an edit after a comment has been made.

I don't really see the significance of this argument.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

As a third a final point, it could be said that an individual isn't performing yoga or meditation at all unless they are taking into consideration all possible aspects of the practice...just a thought that should be pointed out.

unspiritual yoga. yeah right.

[sendao.livejournal.com]

The thing about Yoga is it's not really possible to practice without SOME spiritual aspect. Much like Tai Chi, your body moves energy in response to the movements of your muscles. It's not the kind of thing where you will the energy to move around; you don't need to. Just stretching will move it etc. There are various schools of Yoga that will espouse different faith-systems to you, but really practicing Yoga or Tai Chi is like studying a body science that allows for real observation of spiritual conditions without unscientific yielding to unnecessary beliefs. For example, there's no Yoga or Tai Chi "guardian spirit" or "overlord," there's no "Saint" or "Apostle" of these. They are martial arts, not religions. The difference may seem rather thin... but that is because religion has blanketed this area with faithful beliefs, and science as a result rejects the study entirely. But if you practice tai chi, or practice yoga, I think you'll find yourself discovering a plethora of deterministic and knowable facts that nobody could teach you with a book anyway...

So anyway, my point is, a skeptic playing with yoga is just a skeptic who's about to realize that even a skeptic can have a spirit. It's more than just exercise and it becomes rapidly apparent if you try it.

Re: unspiritual yoga. yeah right.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I agree with you here, although I don't think it would be as straightforward to a skeptic as it is to you and I...

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I think it's probably a positive thing, because it's letting me craft questions very carefully over time.

Re: unspiritual yoga. yeah right.

[sathor.livejournal.com]

I don't think that's true. I think you have to be looking for the subtleties, just like you do when you are trying to achieve perfect pitch. If you aren't looking for them you will never see them, and it'll be the same thing as pilates to you. I know plenty of people in my yoga class didn't see any spiritual aspect whatsoever.